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 Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??

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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:40 pm

I'm sorry TF, but I don't see one thing about that letter that matches.





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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:43 pm

One thing about the Halloween card, it seems as though the writer went over the letters of the words more than once, and it looks to have distorted their appearance a bit. Maybe this is why it looks different?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:01 pm

The write-over is because they couldn't copy Zodiac's handwriting good enough, imo.

But thanks for another something to prove my point! This too is only done with the HC card and the Pines card. NONE of Zodiac's envelopes are like that. Guess he didn't feel the need to go over his own writing.



In comparison with the envelope to the LA Times as well:

No


Edit to add LA Times envelope

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:34 pm

Hmm. Didn't Avery say he thought he knew who sent him the HC? So Avery signed his stuff yrs trly Avery, maybe someone turned it into Averly. Just a thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:47 pm

So the question becomes: Who didn't like Paul Avery enough to scare him into thinking the Zodiac Killer was out to get him?

Was it someone who didn't like him personally or someone who was taking advantage of the situation because it was PAUL who printed their FK/crackproof card? I tend to think it was someone who knew him on a more personal level and you just might be on to something Bentley with the "ly". Sort of "morphing" it (so-to-speak lol) together.



(comment being based off the author not being Zodiac of course)

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:04 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
So the question becomes: Who didn't like Paul Avery enough to scare him into thinking the Zodiac Killer was out to get him?

Ed Montgomery, Charley Howe, Charles Raudebaugh, Mary Crawford, George Murphy, Bill Boldenweck, Baron Muller, Jerry Belcher, Ernie Lenn, Bill O’Brien, Hadley Roff, Jane Eshleman Conant, Hu Bernhard, Andy Curtin, Dan Frishman, Carolyn Anspacher and George Draper

Smile

http://tardytimes.com/-_Paul_and_Judy_1963.html
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:36 pm

Now you're keeping me busy bentley!

I've been curious about the Lincoln (Abe) stamp (Pines card) and of course "Abe" the SF Chron Editor. I just read this in your link in regards to one you named above:

"Paul worked hard, sharing bylines with a rewrite man of uncommon elegance and bedrock cynicism, George Draper (a once-idealistic volunteer with the Abraham Lincoln Brigade)."

....and I'm still reading.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:41 pm

morf13 wrote:
Too bad the Halloween card writer didnt include a piece of shirt,that would have made things easier

That's for sure. So why do you suppose, if Z wanted to scare Avery, he didn't include some of his own, identifiable writing and make darn sure Avery knew where it came from?
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:33 pm

Thanks for the link by the way bentley. VERY interesting read.

You know, in Fincher's Zodiac they included a piece of shirt in with the HC card. Didn't happen.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:33 am

Tahoe,

in your post of 1st of April, the posted article mentions that Z claimed 5 victims and that he will 'continue' his killing spree. Any idea which letter/postcard that was? Couldn´t find it in the 10-13-1969 letter (*throwingallZlettersaround*).

Guess Z had prepared the Stine murder, brought some pair of scissors with him and took only one piece of Stine's shirt, therefore couldn´t mail any second one (at least not without cutting it into two pieces).

BTW, interesting find on another board:




Some might think it is a forgery, however Times Union newspaper still belongs to Hearst Corporation and they were originally founded in - San Francisco. And Hearst Corporation also owns - the San Francisco Chronicle. CEO Richard E. Berlin retired after 30 years in 1973, so there certainly has been some movement inside the company.

If Z worked for the newspaper industry, he might´ve had a reason to travel for a short time to Albany, even if it was to present Zodiac Paper to the new CEO.

The cipher is quite unreadable, Z claims to mention name and location of his next victom. 'Shift' could refer either to a nurse, a telephone assistant or a newspaper employee. Couldn´t find the crime yet.


QT
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:33 am

bentley wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Too bad the Halloween card writer didnt include a piece of shirt,that would have made things easier

That's for sure. So why do you suppose, if Z wanted to scare Avery, he didn't include some of his own, identifiable writing and make darn sure Avery knew where it came from?

He might have dumped it by then, maybe had been questioned by police, and got rid of it. Then again, maybe he didnt tear off that much short, only enough for Belli & one for the Stine letter.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:47 am

Quicktrader wrote:
Tahoe,

in your post of 1st of April, the posted article mentions that Z claimed 5 victims and that he will 'continue' his killing spree. Any idea which letter/postcard that was? Couldn´t find it in the 10-13-1969 letter (*throwingallZlettersaround*).

Guess Z had prepared the Stine murder, brought some pair of scissors with him and took only one piece of Stine's shirt, therefore couldn´t mail any second one (at least not without cutting it into two pieces).

BTW, interesting find on another board:




Some might think it is a forgery, however Times Union newspaper still belongs to Hearst Corporation and they were originally founded in - San Francisco. And Hearst Corporation also owns - the San Francisco Chronicle. CEO Richard E. Berlin retired after 30 years in 1973, so there certainly has been some movement inside the company.

If Z worked for the newspaper industry, he might´ve had a reason to travel for a short time to Albany, even if it was to present Zodiac Paper to the new CEO.

The cipher is quite unreadable, Z claims to mention name and location of his next victom. 'Shift' could refer either to a nurse, a telephone assistant or a newspaper employee. Couldn´t find the crime yet.


QT

The location mentioned in this letter was determined to be the Albany Medical Center. Interesting enough, was that Doreen Gaul, who was murdered in Los Angeles, lived within sight of that Albany Medical Ctr. In the room that she was staying in down in L.A., police found a typed note from somebody claiming to be Zodiac.

Personally, I would not be surprised if that Albany letter was a real Z letter. Darlene Ferrin, her ex Husband, and GAIK, had all been to Albany and spent time there. At the time of her murder, Darlene had entries in Albany in her address book. One of them was for a man named JAMES MAHAR. He's deceased now, so I dont mind putting his name out there. Joe Mahar had previously (back in the 1950's)been statoned in the SF area in the service. He attempted to rob, at gunpoint, a bar in the SF area and was arrested. I dont know what ever came of it. She had the address for him at 6 Dresden Ct in Albany. Not sure how far that was from the Med ctr. I believe the center was at 43 New Scotland Avenue. If thats correct, it about 6 miles away. The guy MAHAR I believe had Family that worked for that newspaper too. I could find no evidence that he was in the Vallejo area circa 1969, but you never know. Here is a thread that mentions Joe Mahar:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t871-any-z-suspects-in-darlene-s-address-book?highlight=address

Again, I wouldnt be surpsied if there is a connection to Albany...too many people mentioned in the Zodiac case that were there.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:13 am

morf13 wrote:
bentley wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Too bad the Halloween card writer didnt include a piece of shirt,that would have made things easier

That's for sure. So why do you suppose, if Z wanted to scare Avery, he didn't include some of his own, identifiable writing and make darn sure Avery knew where it came from?

He might have dumped it by then, maybe had been questioned by police, and got rid of it. Then again, maybe he didnt tear off that much short, only enough for Belli & one for the Stine letter.

I have tried to piece the shirt back together via the photos. From what I can tell not all of it was mailed in, there is still some area containing the bottom seam that is missing. The H card would have been the perfect place for a piece. Belli got one, why not Avery?
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:24 am

bentley wrote:
morf13 wrote:
bentley wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Too bad the Halloween card writer didnt include a piece of shirt,that would have made things easier

That's for sure. So why do you suppose, if Z wanted to scare Avery, he didn't include some of his own, identifiable writing and make darn sure Avery knew where it came from?

He might have dumped it by then, maybe had been questioned by police, and got rid of it. Then again, maybe he didnt tear off that much short, only enough for Belli & one for the Stine letter.

I have tried to piece the shirt back together via the photos. From what I can tell not all of it was mailed in, there is still some area containing the bottom seam that is missing. The H card would have been the perfect place for a piece. Belli got one, why not Avery?

Maybe he mailed it to somebody else, and it was not publicized?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:05 pm

Quicktrader wrote:
Tahoe,

in your post of 1st of April, the posted article mentions that Z claimed 5 victims and that he will 'continue' his killing spree. Any idea which letter/postcard that was? Couldn´t find it in the 10-13-1969 letter (*throwingallZlettersaround*)

That must have been a reference to the L.A. Times front page headline. "Zodiac claims No. 5".

They were referring to Zodiac's "Stine" letter of October 13, 1969.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:21 pm

bentley wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:
So the question becomes: Who didn't like Paul Avery enough to scare him into thinking the Zodiac Killer was out to get him?

Ed Montgomery, Charley Howe, Charles Raudebaugh, Mary Crawford, George Murphy, Bill Boldenweck, Baron Muller, Jerry Belcher, Ernie Lenn, Bill O’Brien, Hadley Roff, Jane Eshleman Conant, Hu Bernhard, Andy Curtin, Dan Frishman, Carolyn Anspacher and George Draper

Smile

http://tardytimes.com/-_Paul_and_Judy_1963.html


That link might be worthy of it's own thread bentley! Quite an interesting story. Judy's murder reminds me of Bates! I think that is more than likely what happened to Cheri.

Judy's murder seemed to really touch Paul. Since I think someone other than Zodiac wrote the stuff addressed to Paul, these names and people mentioned in that article are curious.

Any way to find out who the mayor of Albany, CA was in 1966/or around that time...and who the son was who confessed in '77??

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:24 pm

Try this for the mayor

http://politicalgraveyard.com

I'm still going through that Avery story myself, lots of history there.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:17 pm

Hearst Corp...maybe everybody knows already, but Patty Hearst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Hearst) is daughter of publishing magnate George Hearst..she was 'kidnapped' by the SLA - Symbionese Liberation Army. In the same year, Z sent the SLA-letter, somehow referred to it. In connection with the Albany letter I finally have to think that he was somehow involved in the publishing media. Maybe he really sold Zodiac Paper Inc. paper to the LA Times / SF Chronicle / Times Union? The more crimes, the more paper needed? Would explain his urge to publish his ciphers etc..

SLA Kidnapping Patty Hearst: 02-04-1974
Zodiac SLA-letter: 02-14-1974

Only 10 days difference, eventually the kidnapping was published few days later, it is obvious that Z reffered to the Patty Hearst case.

QT
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:55 pm

Ah...the SLA Letter. Another I don't believe is from the Zodiac Killer. Probably the SLA themselves.

We discuss it here: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t700-zodiac-s-february-1974-sla-letter

***

It wouldn't surprise me if whoever wrote those cards to Avery had newspaper connections. The Pines card wasn't even mailed. If I remember correctly it was dropped off at the Chronicle. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:16 pm

I may have misread the Paul-Judy article, but isn't this the offender's name?

"....Joseph Otto Ebenberger Jr., the son of the ex-mayor of Albany.

THE EX-MAYOR'S SON turned himself in to Oakland police in November 1977 and confessed to the murder of Judy Williamson. Her schoolmate at Albany High School and at UC Berkeley, he was described as “a brilliant student.” He had sometimes driven her to the university. According to his testimony, she had resisted his vows of love that turned into deadly anger on that day 14 years before. Convinced by his lawyer to plead not guilty despite his confession, he was convicted of second-degree murder, sentenced to five-to-life and eventually set free to live with his conscience."
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:22 pm

Doh! Thank you Patinky!

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:00 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if whoever wrote those cards to Avery had newspaper connections. The Pines card wasn't even mailed. If I remember correctly it was dropped off at the Chronicle. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not really sure. RG says the lines are a cancellation stamp, but there is no postmark, and if you look at the back of the Citizen card, the same lines are part of the card. So I think you are right, it never went through the mail.





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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:56 pm

Ok initial comparisons between the Times letter, the pines card and the HC & envelopes.

Comps between all the lower case r's, lower case y's and the word zodiac. My thoughts on this are that the pines card is looking better for a match and the HC card not so much. In saying that this is only for these comparisons. The similarities in the r's suggest a match for the pines card to zodiac but, as Tahoe has proposed, if the writer of the pines card and the HC are one and the same then this would also suggest a match to the zodiac.

I've chosen the r's because there was a variation in styles between the pines card and the HC so this illustrates that a difference in styles in one letter across different communications may not point to a non-match.

I've chosen the y's because I find they are one of the zodiac's unique letters and it is represented quite frequently across all three communications here. There's the angle, the height of the small stroke on the tail, the slightly concave of the smaller stroke in relation to the tail and the occasional slight kink in the mid point of the tail.


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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:55 pm



Thanks Traveller1st, great work as always !Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:03 pm

When evaluating these letters for authenticity we should keep in mind that if they were not done by Z, they were done by someone trying to emulate him.

Which bring up an odd thought. If one is trying to imitate Z's writing, why would you not use a 3 stroke K? Hmm, have to ponder that one.
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