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 Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??

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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:01 am

bentley wrote:
Dice wrote:
If the Pace/Pines card was written by someone else, then Z certainly saw it and used the phrase "crack proof" in the LA Times Letter a year later. It is interesting to note that Z wrote "like I have always said, I am crack proof" when he never wrote or talked about being "crackproof" before that.

Very interesting, thanks for pointing this out. Z did write "have you cracked my last cipher yet" in a previous authentic letter (My Name Is), so he was at least familiar with the term 'crack' in regards to ciphers. Stating 'I'm crackproof' in the Oct. 12 card doesn't sound like something a hoaxer would want to bother bragging about does it? However this card also states 'the pace hasn't slowed, in fact it's just one big thirteenth' but the count was already 13 in the Little List letter a few months prior. The pace had in fact, apparently slowed. Hmm.


Wait,didnt he say "FK I'm crackproof"

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:14 pm



Some time ago I posted a post with images of both the :

The Oct 5, 1970 card and the Oct 12, 1970 card.

And showed that the past up "Mon Oct 5, 1970" and the "Oct 12, 1970 " was taken from the very same newspaper, or at least it was the very same font.

Which IMO point to that the tw cards were created by the same person.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:29 pm

Regarding the HC.

When was it made known to the public that the message on the car door at Berryessa had the phrase 'by knife' on it?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:07 pm

traveller1st wrote:
Regarding the HC.

When was it made known to the public that the message on the car door at Berryessa had the phrase 'by knife' on it?

Damn good question, not prior to the H card that I've found. Still looking.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:23 pm

Theforeigner wrote:


Some time ago I posted a post with images of both the :

The Oct 5, 1970 card and the Oct 12, 1970 card.

And showed that the past up "Mon Oct 5, 1970" and the "Oct 12, 1970 " was taken from the very same newspaper, or at least it was the very same font.

Which IMO point to that the tw cards were created by the same person.

Yes, you did! Which is what got me going on this so thanks a lot! (sarcasm) Laughing Should have given you credit for that.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:33 pm

bentley wrote:

Great job bentley! Thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:34 pm

bentley wrote:
traveller1st wrote:
Regarding the HC.

When was it made known to the public that the message on the car door at Berryessa had the phrase 'by knife' on it?

Damn good question, not prior to the H card that I've found. Still looking.

It was a little over a year of course inbetween LB and the HC card. Probably a good chance it was out there, but worth looking for sure!

If by some chance this (possible) hoaxer worked for let's say, a newspaper, they may have been aware of what was written on the LB door. OR, they were the LB killer. Suspect tongue (I know I drive you all nuts)

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:25 pm

bentley wrote:
traveller1st wrote:
Regarding the HC.

When was it made known to the public that the message on the car door at Berryessa had the phrase 'by knife' on it?

Damn good question, not prior to the H card that I've found. Still looking.

Not sure, but when we first laid our eyes on the 'bleeding knife of zodiac' letter,we had wondered if details of the Berryessa stabbing were released.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:42 pm

I haven't found any reference to the 'by knife' prior to the H card. The word 'by' is the important clue I think, since it was obviously known that Z had killed with a gun and a knife. By fire could have been a future reference to KJ, and by rope another future reference.

As Tahoe pointed out, LE and probably Avery, whoever he blabbed it to and other media people probably knew of the door reference. Or a hoaxer may have simply put it there coincidentally, but it is a point in favor of the card being authentic.

The count was upped to 14 on the H card from 13 on the LL letter of 7/28/70 (and the pace card of 10/05/70). If a murder during that period could be found that was unsolved at the time of the H card, and latter solved as a non-Z crime, that may be a clue of a hoaxer.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:48 pm

Good points. Also as others have mentioned, the knife gun rope fire could be a reference to Domingos/Edwards, as all those elements were used there.

The Nancy Bennallack murder fits in the time period between the 13 victims and 14 victims claimed by Zodiac. Still unsolved.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:34 pm

Hmm, that's interesting, have to have a look at that one.

In the mean time, at left is the G from the Halloween card, followed by the Gs from the 340. Different in form, like the K. It may be that Z just wrote them differently this one time, or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:50 pm

Here is a list of articles from (only) the SF Chronicle. From the time of the stabbing at LB to the HC card. If someone wants to search for mention of "by knife". The L.A. Times and a bunch too. Thanks to "zodiacrevisted.com" for this list:


“New Clues in Lake Killing,” San Francisco Chronicle, 1 October 1969, 3.

“FBI Checks for Clue in Slaying,” San Francisco Chronicle, 2 October 1969, 2.

“Cabbie Slain in Presidio Hts.,” San Francisco Chronicle, 12 October 1969, 1.

“The Boastful ‘Slayer’,” San Francisco Chronicle, 15 October 1969, 1.

Power, Keith. “Bay Killer’s Shrinking Timetable,” San Francisco Chronicle, 16 October 1969, 1.

Power, Keith. “Astrologer Joins Hunt for Killer,” San Francisco Chronicle, 17 October 1969, 3.

Avery, Paul. “Zodiac – Portrait of the Killer,” San Francisco Chronicle, 18 October 1969, 1.

“Message to the Zodiac Killer,” San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle, 19 October 1969, 1.

Wood, Jim. “Police Swamped By Phone Calls,” San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle, 19 October 1969, 1.

“Savage Killing of A Baby Girl,” San Francisco Chronicle, 20 October 1969, 1.

“A ‘Seminar’ Here On Zodiac Killer,” San Francisco Chronicle, 20 October 1969, 3.

Power, Keith. “Lawmen Pool Their Zodiac Clues,” San Francisco Chronicle, 21 October 1969, 1.

Avery, Paul. “Fear Rides the Yellow Bus,” San Francisco Chronicle, 21 October 1969, 5.

Avery, Paul. “The Search For Zodiac’s 4 Weapons,” San Francisco Chronicle, 22 October 1969, 1.

“A ‘Zodiac’ Runaround On TV Show,” San Francisco Chronicle, 23 October 1969, 1.

“A Target for Zodiac,” San Francisco Chronicle, 23 October 1969, 3.

Avery, Paul. “That Wasn’t Zodiac, Say 3 Who Know,” San Francisco Chronicle, 24 October 1969, 1.

Avery, Paul. “Cops No Closer on Zodiac Identity,” San Francisco Chronicle, 25 October 1969, 2.

“The Zodiac Case,” This World, San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle, 26 October 1969, B5.

“Arsenic in Soft Drink – Zodiac?,” San Francisco Chronicle, 8 November 1969, 3.

“Zodiac’s New Message,” San Francisco Chronicle, 12 November 1969, 6.

“The Pattern of Zodiac Crimes,” San Francisco Chronicle, 12 November 1969, 6.

Avery, Paul. “’I’ve Killed Seven,’ The Zodiac Claims,” San Francisco Chronicle, 12 November 1969, 1.

Avery, Paul. “Zodiac ‘Legally Sane’,” San Francisco Chronicle, 13 November 1969, 2.

Avery, Paul. “Berserk S.F. Man Is Slain,” San Francisco Chronicle, 22 November 1969, 3.

Avery, Paul. “A Zodiac-Like Ambush,” San Francisco Chronicle, 26 November 1969, 1.

“’Not Zodiac Killing,” San Francisco Chronicle, 27 November 1969, 2.

“A ‘Zodiac’ Calls Radio Station in Oklahoma City,” San Francisco Chronicle, 8 December 1969, 48.

“New Zodiac Letter – Fears He’ll Kill Again,” San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle, 28 December 1969, 1.

Avery, Paul. “Urgent Appeal by Belli to Zodiac,” San Francisco Chronicle, 29 December 1969, 1.

Avery, Paul. “Belli Sure Zodiac Will Talk to Him,” San Francisco Chronicle, 30 December 1969, 3.

“New Cabbie Attack – Hint Of Zodiac,” San Francisco Chronicle, 26 January 1970, 1.

“Attacked Cab Driver Dies,” San Francisco Chronicle, 27 January 1970, 1.

Avery, Paul. “Yellow Cab Sets Reward For Zodiac,” San Francisco Chronicle, 28 January 1970, ?.

“Talk Show’s ‘Zodaic’ Caller Called a Phony,” San Francisco Chronicle, 6 February 1970, 35.

“Bizarre ‘Zodiac’ Murder,” San Francisco Chronicle, 20 April 1970, 1.

Avery, Paul. “The Bloody ‘Satan’ Murder,” San Francisco Chronicle, 21 April 1970, 3.

Avery, Paul. “Zodiac Sends New Letter – Claims Ten,” San Francisco Chronicle, 22 April 1970, 1.

Avery, Paul. “New Zodiac Threat – Bizarre Twist,” San Francisco Chronicle, 1 May 1970, 8.

Avery, Paul. “Zodiac Says He Killed S.F. Officer,” San Francisco Chronicle, 30 June 1970, 3.

“Nurse Vanishes – A Tahoe Mystery,” San Francisco Chronicle, 26 September 1970, 3.

Avery, Paul. “Gilbert and Sullivan Clue to Zodiac,” San Francisco Chronicle, 12 October 1970, 5.

“Zodiac Halloween Threat,” San Francisco Chronicle, 31 October 1970, 1.


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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:56 pm

bentley wrote:
Hmm, that's interesting, have to have a look at that one.

In the mean time, at left is the G from the Halloween card, followed by the Gs from the 340. Different in form, like the K. It may be that Z just wrote them differently this one time, or not.


Thanks for the comparisons bentley.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:44 pm

Close up of some letters from the Paradice Slaves section of the H card. What do you suppose this was written with? It looks like it may have been sketched out first and then gone over.


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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:54 pm

Fine nibbed drawing pen like a rotring?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:54 pm

bentley wrote:
Close up of some letters from the Paradice Slaves section of the H card. What do you suppose this was written with? It looks like it may have been sketched out first and then gone over.



Good observation. Maybe he tried to hide his writing by writing with pen,and then going over it in marker?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:11 am

traveller1st wrote:
Fine nibbed drawing pen like a rotring?

Yes! Wait, what the heck is that? Graysmith says it was painted. That's what it looks like to me, after being rough sketched. What a time consumer. Was that the one that was supposed to be in blood but wasn't? Anyway, you made a good point earlier. In 'artistic' mode, perhaps Z, if he's the one who did this, designed the G and K differently than in 'writing' mode. Oddly, to me that would be the time to take the extra effort for a 3 stroke K.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:17 am

We used them for manual artwork back in the day. Also used for draughting and so on. Fine metal nibbed pens with a variety of nib sizes and ink filled like a fountain pen but with rotring ink specifically for artwork/draughting.


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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:42 pm

For those of you that think the Halloween card and one or more others are not really from Z, what do you thin of the 'bleeding knife' & the "this state is in trouble' letters seen here: http://mk-zodiac.com/Communication12-16-69Report.html
Do you think they are also copycats, and if so, do you think they are from the same copycat? Any similarity between the Halloween card, cutup magazine mailings, and the Bleeding Knife or state is in trouble letters???

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:03 pm

- Zodiac's August 1969 Letter (first as "Zodiac")

- Letter to Belli December 1969

- Little List Letter July 1970

- Pines Card March of 1971


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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:25 pm

Interesting. It kinda looks like the vi and the im from the same word with the ct grafted in so I wonder what the word was before. It could I suppose have been victim but the author decided to break it up anyway hence the correct spelling. Just a theory. Good spot.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:52 pm

Nice catch Tahoe. We should probably have a list of consistencies and inconsistencies in these cards. A list that can be added to. A little list of worst offenders.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:56 pm

traveller1st wrote:
Interesting. It kinda looks like the vi and the im from the same word with the ct grafted in so I wonder what the word was before. It could I suppose have been victim but the author decided to break it up anyway hence the correct spelling. Just a theory. Good spot.

Could be. Maybe after seeing that he finally learned how to spell victim! Wink

***

I just don't get why Zodiac would write the L.A. Times a week or so before this Pines card and write about his reasoning for writing them saying "they don't bury me on the back pages like the others".....then, he writes the others??

Zodiac was always trying to prove he wasn't a liar. Why would he say he was doing this and then address something to the very people he was excluding? He sure forgave the Chronicle quickly!

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March 13, 1971 - Zodiac letter to L.A Times (I'm only writing to you--because the others suck)
March 22, 1971 - Pines card also to the Chronicle and the Examiner (changed my mind here you go, but I'm going to cut & paste from magazines and trace over my handwriting)

FAKE - FAKE - FAKE
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:21 pm

While I personally think that the Halloween card is a real Zodiac mailing, I also think that the reason he added so many eyes to it, is because of the story that had run a day or two earlier. A black female was discovered in the presidio heights area. She was mutilated, and her eye lids were cut off. I think Z read the paper, saw the presidio Heights angle, thought he could get cops to think he did it since he killed Stine there, and quickly sent a Halloween card with lots oy big eyes on it. The timing is just way too close for me for it not to be intentional on Zodiac's part(or a copycat's). Of course, the crime had nothing to do with Zodiac, and the black female, who turned out to be involved in prostitution, was killed by a pimp. He was arrested

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:29 pm

morf13 wrote:
While I personally think that the Halloween card is a real Zodiac mailing, I also think that the reason he added so many eyes to it, is because of the story that had run a day or two earlier. A black female was discovered in the presidio heights area. She was mutilated, and her eye lids were cut off. I think Z read the paper, saw the presidio Heights angle, thought he could get cops to think he did it since he killed Stine there, and quickly sent a Halloween card with lots oy big eyes on it. The timing is just way too close for me for it not to be intentional on Zodiac's part(or a copycat's). Of course, the crime had nothing to do with Zodiac, and the black female, who turned out to be involved in prostitution, was killed by a pimp. He was arrested
That's a very intriguing tidbit, morf. It just strengthens the notion that Zodiac never killed anyone after Presidio Heights.
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