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 Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??

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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:57 pm

These two pieces of communication have always bothered me.

All we really have are the envelopes to TRULY compare writing.

The Pines card is SO bad! I looked through every piece of Zodiac's writing and he NEVER made a capital letter "A" in that way....ever.

Of course the other side is paste-ups.


The Halloween card. CLOSELY look at the writing. Just doesn't look like Zodiac to me at all! Not even the circle-cross on the inside of the card!

- Notice the drawn out wavy "r", the "n", the hook on the "c". ??


Then we have the paste-ups. Zodiac didn't do this in any other communications. Heck, on the Pines card, the writer didn't even want to write the newspapers name and addresses! And when did he start writing the Examiner again??

The thing is, Zodiac LOVED to write and in every communication but these, he wrote...and wrote...and wrote.

The stamps. Yes, the Apollo stamp could be a reference to his first murders (I have suggested this myself in the past), but a copycat could have had the same thought.

I think these cards could be from the same person, but not Zodiac. Maybe even "old Tom": http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t950-old-tom-and-his-fake-z-letters


Edited to add photos

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Last edited by tahoe27 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:40 am; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:48 pm

Agreed. Somewhere I listed a bunch of reasons as well, most of which you hit on. I'm not surprised to hear Avery himself had his doubts.

But I'll still play with the WFB and such when there's nothing else cooking... Basketball
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:43 pm

bentley wrote:
Agreed. Somewhere I listed a bunch of reasons as well, most of which you hit on. I'm not surprised to hear Avery himself had his doubts.

But I'll still play with the WFB and such when there's nothing else cooking... Basketball

Please add anything else you notice. I still play too. Smile

***

Also noting: I know the Pines Card didn't have an "envelope"....was just the front of the card.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:03 pm

Found my old post:

I have my doubts the Halloween card is authentic.

1. Different stamp than previous and post authenticated letters which carry the same stamp.

2. Only envelope to use a return "address".

3. Only envelope addressed to Avery instead of SF Chron.

4. Only letter or envelope to use the letter Z for a signature.

5. Only card with very elaborate artwork.

6. No body of handwriting as in all other authentic letters.

7. No easily verifiable handwriting match IMO.

Some or all of the above information was probably not public knowledge, therefore a forger would not have known any better. And yes, a personal threat to Avery could explain some of the above. There may be an instance or two where I am mistaken, please point out if so, or some proof of it's authenticity that I have overlooked, also welcomed.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:24 pm

One of the most annoying aspects of this case is the uncertainty about which letters are authentic. It's too bad Fincher didn't get it right. IF a piece of Stine's shirt had been in the Halloween Card, that would remove the doubts! lol
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:38 pm

Add the fk I'm crackproof 10/5/70 and the 10/12/70 cards to the list of fakes created by the same person, imo. As discussed here:



http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t748-the-zodiac-is-going-to-postcard-from-10-12-70 - link to 10/12/70 card

***

I was reading an article in the L.A. Times today dated 11/12/69 mentioning the piece of Stine's shirt being enclosed with the "Sorry I haven't written" card and it got me thinking. Why didn't Zodiac enclose a piece in the HC card to Paul Avery? He had more shirt.

And why was Zodiac so desperate to prove he was the author? Because there were fakes.

Written in the L.A Times article:

'Ersatz Zodiacs'

"And police in all Bay Area cities meanwhile, where faced with the possibilities that they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep."

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Last edited by tahoe27 on Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:40 pm

And another one of the many (handwriting) reasons I don't believe this card was sent from Zodiac.
Not that Zodiac always made a 3-stroke "K", but when he focused on his block-style he did....but, not here:






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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:17 am

*

Once again, Paul Avery writes an article about Zodiac and Zodiac's letter to the L.A. Times.



via zodiacrevisited.com


^^
Voila', a cut & paste is "sent" to Paul a few days later...with capital A's we have never seen, and back again, the Examiner.





Zodiac had no problem handwriting his letter to the Los Angeles Times, but he needs to switch it up for Paul?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:18 am

Great work again Tahoe.

So what's up with the Averly? Was this person Oriental or something? Some kind of joke/dig?
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:40 am

Very interesting stuff Tahoe. I have a question....the way in which AVERLY is written on the postcard instead of AVERY,is just like the Halloween card to Avery. Since the postcard came inabout a year after the Halloween card,would the general public have seen the Halloween card envelope to imitate the AVERLY word?

Remember, the Halloween card was established as a real Z communication,so i think the odd use of the word AVERLY likely is from the same person, unless, there was mention of it or a photo of the envelope in the paper

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:58 am

The Halloween card was established based on Morrill's handwriting comparison to Z letters. I believe Tahoe's point is why? I don't see any match either, plus the other variances I noted above. The HC was never checked for DNA btw, and the paste ups should have been a good source.

In any case, the Chron reported the misspelling of Avery as Averly right away. I think both of those cards are from the same person though.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:29 am

bentley wrote:
The Halloween card was established based on Morrill's handwriting comparison to Z letters. I believe Tahoe's point is why? I don't see any match either, plus the other variances I noted above. The HC was never checked for DNA btw, and the paste ups should have been a good source.

In any case, the Chron reported the misspelling of Avery as Averly right away. I think both of those cards are from the same person though.

Okay,good to know that the chron did mention the misspelling,so it could be a fraud. On the other hand,I respect Sherwood's work as the Z writing expert,so i will side with him that it was legit. I certainly could be wrong,and you guys do bring up some good points.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:58 am

I mention in the title of this thread that I believe this stuff to be from the same person. NOT Zodiac.

I, more strongly then ever, believe the HC card is not a Zodiac communique. I firmly believe you would find handwriting experts today NOT agree with Sherwood. To say that writing on the envelope looks like any other Z stuff....I don't get it.

The HC card has long been thought to be from Zodiac, and it's one of the more intriguing things mailed in. Has that "creep" factor---what would we do if that wasn't sent from Zodiac!

Regardly AverLY....I have no idea why someone would do that.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:47 pm

And another thing. Seems like whoever sent these cards never gave the official tally like Zodiac. Purely inuendos.

"4-teen": No score. Many have wondered if it was a body count or threat to Paul being the 14th victim. We know Paul was never a victim.

"Sought victim 12"": No score. Again, no verification he actually KILLED victim 12. Like, "me 12, SLTPD/Douglas County 0" - nah

Covers the senders ass doesn't it?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:05 pm

morf13 wrote:

Okay,good to know that the chron did mention the misspelling,so it could be a fraud. On the other hand,I respect Sherwood's work as the Z writing expert,so i will side with him that it was legit. I certainly could be wrong,and you guys do bring up some good points.

Morrill also confirmed the 4/78 City Pig Toschi letter..
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:22 pm

bentley wrote:
morf13 wrote:

Okay,good to know that the chron did mention the misspelling,so it could be a fraud. On the other hand,I respect Sherwood's work as the Z writing expert,so i will side with him that it was legit. I certainly could be wrong,and you guys do bring up some good points.

Morrill also confirmed the 4/78 City Pig Toschi letter..

So did John Shimota(Spelling correct?)another writing expert that worked on the Z case

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:31 pm

I think he took it back.. bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:33 pm

bentley wrote:
I think he took it back.. : Surprised bounce:

A do-over? Surprised

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:13 pm

I think Shimoda took his opinion back after further experts had denounced it.

Regarding the pines card and the HC card. It does look like the same person was responsible for them. Nice work Tahoe.

I'm not sure how I feel about these. I guess like most people I've just accepted that the HC was legit but was not so hot on the Pines card. Still accepted it tho.

I don't find the idea of a change in presentation too troubling. I base this mostly on the bus bomb diagrams, the doodle on the exorcist letter and Diablo map. There is of course the ciphers as well so if you think about in that way, he actually did mix it up a bit.

The differences in writing (what little there is) is interesting where you have these clear differences regarding the 'A's'. I don't know if there's enough (yet) to say these are fakes but we could certainly do with more proof either way. Again though, good work Tahoe.

My thinking on the shirt aspect of the case was that Zodiac felt the need to prove this was him because I think of the nature of the crime. One, it was his first (and maybe his last) in the big city but also because it was an attack on a cab driver, of which there had been quite a few at that time. Also it may have been more for the benefit of LE if he had got wind of the emerging doubts of the letters authenticity in general (I have wondered if those were the lies that he accused LE of telling about him - that he was getting the info from the papers, so this was his way of saying, it is me, I'm killing and writing the letters. I think his letters being questioned would have been quite an insult to him as they seemed almost as important to him as the crimes.)

I wouldn't care if these were shown to be fake because at least it would get something out of the way that is distracting. It's the not knowing for sure that's worse.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:05 pm

Too bad the Halloween card writer didnt include a piece of shirt,that would have made things easier

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PostSubject: writing   Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:00 pm

The handwriting on the pines card reminds me of the handwriting on those bogus Fairfield letters.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:00 pm

bounce Oh boy, here we go, down that deep dark rabbit albino hole again. Did you ever think scratch that it could be differnt people in one mind. They all write differly. No There not the same, nor do they write the same. But it's the same body. Odd, I know, some say it's true, drunken it could be. Have you ever done something and couldn't recall. But, they say that you did it. Or your driving and don't recall how you got home. Or time just gets away from you. It's 9am then it's 1pm and you can't recall a thing at all. Suspect What the hell Shocked have I been doing all this time. Or it just could be, ya...aliens,:affraid:that it!!! Ive been in outer space all this time. alien It's all so clean to me now. confused Follow, that little white rabbit rabbit
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:23 pm

@ keysmith...

I can honestly say I have never had any of those things happen. Smile

So, is it Zodiac with a separate persona for Paul Avery or just some kook messin' with him. I'm with the latter.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:24 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
These two pieces of communication have always bothered me.

All we really have are the envelopes to TRULY compare writing.

The Pines card is SO bad! I looked through every piece of Zodiac's writing and he NEVER made a capital letter "A" in that way....ever.

Of course the other side is paste-ups.


The Halloween card. CLOSELY look at the writing. Just doesn't look like Zodiac to me at all! Not even the circle-cross on the inside of the card!

- Notice the drawn out wavy "r", the "n", the hook on the "c". ??


Then we have the paste-ups. Zodiac didn't do this in any other communications. Heck, on the Pines card, the writer didn't even want to write the newspapers name and addresses! And when did he start writing the Examiner again??

The thing is, Zodiac LOVED to write and in every communication but these, he wrote...and wrote...and wrote.

The stamps. Yes, the Apollo stamp could be a reference to his first murders (I have suggested this myself in the past), but a copycat could have had the same thought.

I think these cards could be from the same person, but not Zodiac. Maybe even "old Tom": http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t950-old-tom-and-his-fake-z-letters


Edited to add photos

Tahoe and Traveller1 ( and anyone ) please compare the Zodiac Halloween card handwriting and the Pine card handwriting, to the Zodiac March 13, 1971 Zodiac letter.

IMHO they seem to match:


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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:25 pm

Here is another copy, bigger, but less sharp, of the march 13, 1971 Zodiac letter:


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